do you think the interrogators were waterboarding khalid shaikh mohammed because they wanted justice for the 9/11 killings, or do you think they were waterboarding khalid shaikh mohammed because they saw him as the most valuable asset they would ever get, and they had a program to get information that they believed would get the names of couriers, that they believed would get them to osama bin laden? >> you know, joe, i don't know the answer to that, and i haven't seen this movie, but i do think that torture, again, is the human rights crisis of our time, and i just think no matter who's doing it, whether it's happening in the middle east, whether it's happening on american soil, no matter where it's happening, it's problematic. >> can you define really quickly, what did we do that is torture? i'd take it you'd say waterboarding. >> i would say waterboarding. >> sleep deprivation? >> it's murky territory. the fact that we're having this debate on what is torture and we're going into the details of this, it's worrisome to me. >> it's worrisome to me that we have seen what torture is r